Thanks for such an extensive comment.

Taubes has examined nearly all the literature, from what I can tell. And has paid a lot of attention to the European literature, specifically Austro/German from before the second world war, which, for obvious but bad reasons, was completely ignored. So Anglo-American research on the subject sort of started from scratch, or worse. That earlier research, and I would say common knowledge, that starches and sugars lay behind obesity was in effect lost.

I agree that, once you arrive into obesity, consumption of all calories becomes a problem, and I don’t believe Taubes is denying at all the complexity of the metabolic process, but rather trying to find the what is most important. It seems that insulin seems to play a fundamental role. Taubes is applying critical thinking to the research, and also to his own findings, and that is quite rare in my experience.

I think you can play fast and loose with carbohydrates until middle-age, as I have done in effect, and what the research above is saying. Then small differences in appetite and appetite control can cascade into a more serious problem.

Tim

First of all, one geographical background detail: I am not American, not Brittish… I am in Belgium. Why is this important to mention? It is because Belgium is not really under the general Anglosaxon influence. We have more links with France, Spain… (Historically-culturally spoken) This goes for food as well.
Anyway, I had been in serious discussion some time ago, about the SEEMINGLY (I did not read the book) simplification from Taubes “it all is about carbohydrates”, just as simple as the other one “it all is about fat”.
I don’t like simplifications of any kind. The one thing I didn’t know at first was that the “fat thing” seems to be a very OFFICIAL simplification in the USA, and as such also in the UK ???? (National Health Service propaganda and such ???) And, that Taubes is attacking the one existing HYPE by promoting the other hype… just as this would be some kind of a “typical American discussion technique”?
Perhaps this technique is “healthy” in an American context where everything must allways be exagerated… to me it provokes averse from anything I read around the subject.
I want a CLEAR view. Not a simplified. (Those are not synonyms)
Obesity specialist doctors in Belgium don’t use clichés of any kind. NO pre-assumed conclusion at all. It seems logic to me.
After all: every single person is different. In all aspects: his diet (free will to eat what he effectively eats), his lifestyle, his personal (both) basic and basal metabolism, his possible physiologic defects… It is SO logic not to conclude anything before you know it all. Then, I hear about all these generalising “controversions”… It is just MAD.
Why are so many doctors/scientists from the Anglosaxon world go into, or denie controversions about the subject, when BOTH options are just the result of preliminary generalising/simplifieing in one way or the other !! ???? While the whole physiological process of metabolism is extremely complicated and a result of douzens of different factors at the same time ! ?? This is just the truth. That is why we NEED scientists/doctors. If it WOULD be that simple, we can do away with them. Best seller writers will do the job (on regularly changing hypes) until eternity… => In fact THAT is the feeling the whole Taubes-or-not-Taubes history is giving me.
The one thing that the Belgian obesity specialists agree about, is that very obese people (except for serious physiological defects) eat way too much in general ! Of everything bad, so to say, because it is TOO MUCH. As well too much carbohydrates, as too much fat, as too much proteins… and, additionally, that these real obese who finally come to look for professional help, are allways seriously underestimating their own daily intake of anything. (Ostich policy…)
So yes, I am talking about the obese who eventually go for help, not about those who just talk about it and read dietary blabla books. The specialists can only talk about their own patients, and not about people walking by along the street. At least, that is the Belgian specialist attitude… it seems. Are the US specialists talking more about those people walking on the street, whose condition they did NOT check themselves ??? Weird statistics ?? Just a question.
A lot of statistical studies from institutes, about “whether or not people underestimate or overestimate their daily food intake” tell: not very significant majorities of any kind, except that people wich are heavier tend to underestimate a bit more then people who are lighter…. => I was laughing with those studies as they were all done on a mixure of all kind of people… except for those who are really obese. There intervenes the experience of obesity specialists, who state that allmost all of their patients understimate. The statistics show the direction, the specialists can tell where it ends up: THEY EAT WAY TOO MUCH, of anything. (Repeated: except for persons with specific physiological defects, wich is examined thoughoughfully)
I guess Taubes concluded about one of the topics, that eating less was not making fat people thinner, unless it was virtual starvation ?? The obesity specialists say: these people eat SO incredible much, that an absolutely normal human diet resembles starvation for them personally! Illusion ! In reality it IS NOT, it is what they CALL it, because they just ate on avarage (2),3,4 times MORE…. and complain about the doctors diet “wanting to kill them becauce they cannot eat anything anymore”!??.. NO, just like “normal” people…
And then, there is the typical problem of the overgrown stomach, through years of eating-training… a so well known physical problem among the obese, and magically forgotten in the Taubes relates subjects!?
And so on, and so on…
Really, if you go down to the basic complexity of all this, there is much more then simple “controversions”… Anyway, those seem not existing among the Belgian specialists, who very often get patients from Holland where they are very pround having strong Anglosaxon ties…

Greets

Tim

Thanks so much for sharing that additional reporting here. I was really interested in the point you made about retired athletes. I had thought it might be a problem, but had never seen it mentioned. And the question of what is balanced is really important. Over the years I can see how the right balance can easily shift to the wrong one, for example, as we prefer the convenience of meals like pasta over more traditional fare, within which the carbohydrate mix might be lower.
But I’m still in the process of discovery, and obviously over halfway into that 25-50-year-old risk group. And I think this is the point. Without being overweight, or doing anything obviously wrong, I can have eaten more carbohydrate over time than the next person, and then, at a certain point, my appetite control deteriorates while that other person has no problem; my weight gain looks like a lack of discipline rather than a marginal difference in dietary intake in the past.

Tim

Q: Are complex carbs the issue?
A: This study suggests too many carbs could be the issue.

Q: If eaten as part of a balanced diet are carbs still a problem?
A: Not at all….its an important point.

Q: Is it mainly processed foods that cause the concerns and if you have a highly physical job does your body still suffer if you eat carbohydrates.
A: Highly processed food are extremely bad, you should avoid at all cost. Exercise is very important…especially aerobic….unfortunately a person with a highly physical job should still probablly try to do exercise….although i agree its much better than sitting in a office. Depends on physical nature of job too.

Q: I coach athletes and this could be an issue. Resupplying with a high carbohydrate meal as close to finishing training or competing has always been encouraged.
A: Yes, i would keep going with what works for you. We were using non exercised subjects…………..to avoid this complication

So as the experiment was set up to account for excess use of carbs it appears that there might be an issue later in life even for individuals who are active.

My reply top Dr Andrews included:
Maybe your research also throws light on a contributory factor as to why athletes tend to put on a lot of weight after they retire. It might not just be due to habit; stomach size and your findings could mean that athletes never feel full and so over eat. This combined with a more sedentary lifestyle could seriously upset the balance of input calories over calories burned.

A source of future research possibly.